Life in Russia-occupied Ukraine: Terror, secret phones and a ban on the Ukrainian language

Praha/Kyjev 23. listopadu 2024 Sdílet na Facebooku Sdílet na Twitteru Sdílet na LinkedIn Tisknout Kopírovat url adresu Zkrácená adresa Kopírovat do schránky Zavřít

How would you describe the past 1,000 days for yourself and for Ukraine?
I think these 1,000 days were the hardest in both my life and in the life of modern Ukraine. Since Ukraine gained independence, every day we have faced violations of human rights, deaths, torture and all these missile attacks. So this is a very hard time for our country.

Can you tell me what these 1,000 days have they been like for people living under the occupation of the Russian Federation?
Probably for them these 1,000 days were even harder. Because they are limited in information. They are limited in their freedom. I know that the majority of the people who stayed under occupation hope to join the free part of the country. But for now they live in constant terror and they are limited in everything. They cannot use Ukrainian. They cannot use Ukrainian passports or Ukrainian license plates. They cannot even use their own property unless they are willing to collaborate with all these new Russian institutions. So they are really limited in their rights. And in their freedom.

Can you tell me, are the people in the occupied territories able to access basic necessities? Like energy, water, medical supplies?
If they have a Russian passport, they have access to medical supplies – that is the case when we speak about people who live far away from the front line. But near the front line, people often have no access to medical supplies or to clean water. They have no heating in their houses. They often have no electricity because of war attacks from both sides. Of course, if we speak about the southern regions and if we imagine, for example, the Crimean Peninsula, we know that they have heating and medical care. But if we speak about the Kherson region, for example, which is closer to the front line, people have nothing, almost nothing. So it's better for them to evacuate to any side just to stay alive and have basic medical care and so on. If they stay far away, they can have property, a car, and medical care, but only if they change their citizenship and get a Russian passport. There are some people that still don’t have a Russian passport and their life is very limited. They stay home. They cannot get anything from the occupying government. If they go outside, they can be checked by the Russian soldiers at any checkpoint. And they will face questions. Why do they still not have a Russian passport? This is rather suspicious for Russians. So there will be questions, checks, maybe detention. And, of course, they will check their phone. This is the favorite check of the Russian police and soldiers. Such people are in real danger.

So life depends on two things. First it's a regional thing – it’s region from region. If you're closer to the front line, life is different than if you're farther from the front line. And second, it’s about whether you have or don't want to have a Russian passport?
Yes, but still, even if you have a Russian passport, they can still check all your gadgets. They can still check your phone calls. With whom do you speak? To whom do you write in your messengers? There are messengers that are forbidden under the occupation, such as Signal or WhatsApp. If they find that you still have these applications, there will be questions and you will probably be in trouble. It’s similar with education, for example. You cannot get a Ukrainian education. I know that in some cases, Ukrainian teachers from the free part of Ukraine, they can teach children online and they can use Ukrainian programs and speak in Ukrainian. But there are now almost no children under the occupation who can connect with Ukrainian teachers from the free part of Ukraine, just to listen and to do tasks, because this program is forbidden. And it is forbidden under the occupation to speak to Ukrainian teachers, to use the Ukrainian language, to do any tasks according to the Ukrainian educational program. It is also forbidden to use, for example, Telegram channels that inform people about news in Ukraine, in the world, for example, in the USA and other countries. What is not forbidden are only the neutral channels or those that use propaganda, that is, Russian propaganda.

So the people are isolated.
Yes, the people are pretty isolated. But still, as I said at the beginning, there are lots of people with a pro-Ukrainian position that hope to get to the Ukrainian side or hope that Ukraine will free them, release them from the occupants. I heard that sometimes people have a second hidden phone. They do not use it publicly or take it outside. But still, they can have pro-Ukrainian Telegram channels on this phone. Some use it just to stay in touch with the nation, people, journalists, and just to know more about what is going on in the free world.

So this is how you stay connected with those people?
No, no. We understand that it is very dangerous to phone people who live under the occupation. So we try not to do this, in any cases. It is one thing when a person just reads news from, for example, Telegram channels or from media, such as the BBC or Ukrainian channels. But it is another thing when they phone with someone. Our focus as an organization is human rights violations. So if we phone the person and we ask whether they were tortured or whether their phone was checked or such questions about detention, it is very dangerous. And the Russians can hear this because they have special technical equipment for wiretapping and for listening to what people in the occupied territories are talking about on their phones. So we never do this.

But you have some ways of gathering updates on their situation?
Through their relatives or sometimes other people phone us if they feel a sense of responsibility themselves. But this is the minority of people, fortunately, because it's really dangerous. Of course, we also monitor open sources. Those with propaganda, those that the Russians created, various Telegram channels, all these websites where the people write about the news in the occupation, about how the Russians detain Ukrainians, how they accuse them of any crimes. So we monitor this information. And if these people or their relatives leave the occupation, we connect with them. And, of course, we interview them and help them to get to governmental institutions.

So you get a pretty good picture of what's going on.
Yes, because we also interview people that get out from the occupation. And we ask them all these questions about human rights violations, about what they have seen and what they have felt. So, yes, of course, we have a good idea.

How hard is it for them to leave these regions?
It is very hard. If we speak about southern regions, at the beginning of the full-scale invasion, there were some so-called green corridors, although it was still dangerous. And people from the occupied territories could get from one region to another, from the occupied region to a de-occupied or non-occupied region. But now, Russians closed all these ways to get out directly. And people from the occupied territories have to go through Russian territory, or, in some cases, through territories of EU countries, to get to Ukraine. Such a road can take 10 or 11 days. And these people are checked at every checkpoint, that’s up to 40 checkpoints. Russians ask them different questions: Do they have a Russian passport? If no, why? Do they support Zelenskyy? Do they support different European institutions? What about their religious views or thoughts? What about their family? Are there any family members that can be Ukrainian soldiers? And so on. It's very exhausting. It's very nervous travel back home. But still, people come back.

I have to ask you, we recently covered the tragic death of journalist Victoria Roshchyna, who made repeated attempts to report from within occupied regions. It's highly dangerous to go there. It's nearly impossible for journalists to go there and enter those regions. Are you aware of others who made similar efforts and attempts?
No, I have never heard about others. It's really very dangerous. We know little about how she got there. We only know that she was detained. And this is a rather usual story for the beginning of the occupation, because after the full-scale invasion, Russians detained journalists, activists, all these people who can influence society. But Victoria went to the occupied territory after this wave of detentions of activists, journalists and such. Of course, she knew that it is very dangerous, because we have Dmitry Hilyuk, who was detained at the beginning of the occupation from the Kiev region. And he is still in captivity. We have other journalists from Melitopol that are still being held somewhere in Russian prisons. So she knew that this is dangerous, but she probably had something to show to her readers.

Let's take it from the Russian viewpoint or perspective for a moment. Does Russia currently consider all Ukrainians in the occupied territories to be Russian citizens?
They included these regions into their constitution, but still, I don't know what they think about this. I think that those who accepted Russian passports, they consider to be Russian citizens. But those who didn't, probably no. Probably no, but they try to push them to do this.

To ask for Russian citizenship, to have Russian passports. They push them to do that?
Yes. But still, I think that they do not feel like even those with Russian passports are Russians. They are suspicious of such people. They do not like them. Because they know that Ukrainians want their life back. Even with Russian passports.

Yeah, I get it. But do they move some parts of their population, Russian population, to the occupied regions?
Yes, they moved to them from the very beginning. We know that in Kherson, when it was still occupied, they moved Russian doctors to the hospitals in Kherson. And they tried to move teachers. Of course, they moved all these policemen and various different governmental workers. And these people who work for a year or two, of course, they try to move their families as well. If we speak about Mariupol, they moved different workers to build new buildings or something like that. So, yes, they have done that.

Are young Ukrainians being recruited into the Russian army?
Yes, they try to do this. The last news that I read, yesterday in the local media, was that in Kherson two men hanged themselves, killed themselves, because the Russians tried to recruit them to the Russian army. I can't imagine what their method was to do this. These two men were previously soldiers of the Ukrainian army, before the full-scale invasion. Veterans. Of course, this is a hard story. So yes, they try to recruit. But still, they think that Ukrainians are suspicious, so I hope that they will not do it in the majority of cities and villages.

One more question about the Russian perspective. Is it still true that Russian forces are abducting Ukrainian children and deporting them to Russia?
Yeah, they deported lots of orphanages at the beginning of the full-scale invasion. But still, you know, there are different situations, sometimes relatives can be dead and so on. Of course, they deport such children. They find all these families that have problems and they try to deport these children to the Russian side. We have a case of this little girl, whose mum was dead, unfortunately she died of some illness probably. And her dad was kidnapped by the Russians. He's in Russian territory now and he's a civilian detainee. We don't know where they moved the girl, but they probably put her in an orphanage somewhere in Russia.

And they want them to start learning Russian, right?
Yeah, of course. They want all children, even those that have relatives and parents, to...

To russificate them.
Yeah, to russificate. They use only Russian programs. They have no Ukrainian in their program. It is even forbidden to use Ukrainian. We have lots of cases when they beat people, detain them, because they use the Ukrainian language.

You've said that there are a lot of people who want to escape the occupied territories. Is there any form of resistance among locals? Can there be?
Yes, there is the yellow stripe, which is a famous movement of people that are pro-Ukrainian. They try to put the yellow stripe on trees, or they write it on the ground or somewhere on the stones. And they call on people in the occupied area to help and to believe that Ukraine will be there soon.

A very hard, harsh winter is coming. It's going to be maybe the most difficult winter since the full-scale invasion. Do Ukrainians in the occupied regions still believe that the situation can change? And how are they prepared for winter?
Of course Ukrainians believe that something will change. They believe that the world will pay attention to the situation and will help our country to resist and to get back our territories, together with our people and children. This is a very important question. And it is really a huge hope of people in the occupied territories. As for winter, well the previous winter was rather hard for people on the occupied territories, because there were a lot of problems with electricity and there were a lot of problems with water after the attack on Kakhovka Dam. People somehow managed to stay alive. They used outdoor fires just to cook their food. They used different alternative ways of heating their flats and houses. Of course, if we speak about the regions near their front line, there the situation is very hard. Fortunately there are not so many people in these territories, but there are still some, especially those that are retired. Ukraine tried to evacuate them, if we had access to such territories, but unfortunately there are some territories that were occupied very quickly, so we had no access to these people. And I am afraid that some will die. We see these videos and photos of how Russia occupies these villages and there are lots of civilians, lying on the roads, just killed. So, yeah.

Ok, thank you very much Anastasia for your time and for talking about this.
Thank you, as well.